016 AIRES MATEUS I really believe that we have worked with all the materials considered as the main ones, and doing everything with the same material. I have the idea that by putting it all together it becomes white. FS: [Another important issue related to teaching] Both in your teaching work and in your professional practice there is a very clear Portuguese influence, but there is also a very significant Swiss influence. When you sometimes try to bring out the unifying theme in the Portuguese work, there is a very great power and an accentuation in terms of capturing space. However, when you go to Switzerland, there is a much more phenomenological, more material component. I’ve heard you say that at first, when you arrived from Portugal and landed in the Swiss school, there was a certain resistance to embracing phenomenology, but then, after a few years of giving classes there, there was a part that was incorporated into your teaching and professional practice. I have always been very curious to know what was introduced into your teaching from this Swiss culture. MAM: More than Swiss culture, it’s a universal culture. We encounter two cultures, one local and one global, as two phenomena at the same time. This local-global struggle is very important and is not just about teaching. Portugal is a country with very strong traditions that come from the condition of very direct construction, almost like a century-old tradition of Portuguese architecture. This tradition has been very well translated by Álvaro Siza in a certain way, although we consider him a virtuoso of drawing, of spatial construction and of the idea of movement in space, which is very beautiful in his work as a whole. Siza is a bit what synthesizes and what interests us about the local culture. And then, from the global culture, there are many influences. There is a very strong influence from the Swiss, not from them in general, but from the early works of Herzog & de Meuron and the early works of Zumthor. We coincided with Zumthor’s teaching and came to Mendrisio through him. We were very interested in the idea of atmosphere, which perhaps in Portuguese culture is not much commented on. Space is spoken about, but as a form more than anything else. We have gained a bit of awareness that form is part of something much more important than atmosphere. The atmosphere, which is not only physical, is also cultural, psychological... The atmosphere is what we understand as real comfort and cultural comfort together, and at that point, I think it has been very important to go to Switzerland and have closer contact with Zumthor, even if it was not in such a personal and direct way. We looked at him from afar, listened to his classes, the things he did with the students and we really learned a lot in that sense. The same thing happened with Siza. I know him well. I know all his work. Every time he does something new I go to see it. I know him a lot in that sense, a more important sense for me than having spoken and done it in a more direct and personal way. I think it’s important to maintain and understand your origin, because doing so is part of understanding your individuality, because what’s beautiful in the world are the people, one by one. I think it is very important to keep your personality, and part of that is to keep your origin, your local condition. But also, the world is dazzling. The world is full of surprises, of incredibly beautiful things that you have to incorporate. I think it’s a natural game, without rules, because the only rule I have for sure in the projects is that they’re done one by one. From your question, there’s a topic that I would separate a little bit, which is teaching. I think one teaches to learn, but one is not so generous as to dedicate oneself to teaching just to teach. We have always had that as an idea. I have been teaching since I finished my degree, in many schools, in many places, especially at the beginning here in Lisbon, and I have always learned by teaching. When you teach, there is one very nice point, which is that you are discussing an architecture where the decision about the direction of the project is not yours. This is the major difference with working in offices where the responsibility for the project management is yours. In school it is the student’s, but you work in the same way. You discuss ideas, you discuss forms and possibilities and from there you make architecture. And really, by teaching you learn because we work on many projects at the same time. Esta lucha local-global es muy importante y no sólo tiene que ver con la enseñanza. Portugal es un país con unas tradiciones muy fuertes que vienen de la condición de la construcción muy directa, casi como una tradición centenaria de la arquitectura portuguesa. Esta tradición ha sido muy bien traducida por Álvaro Siza de una cierta forma, aunque lo consideremos un virtuoso del dibujo, de la construcción espacial y de la idea de movimiento en el espacio, lo cual es muy bonito en el conjunto de su obra. Siza es un poco lo que sintetiza y lo que nos interesa de la cultura local. Y luego, de la cultura global, hay muchas influencias. Hay una influencia muy fuerte de los suizos, no de ellos en general, sino de las primeras obras de Herzog & de Meuron y de las primeras obras de Zumthor. Coincidimos enseñando con Zumthor y llegamos a Mendrisio a través de él. Nos ha interesado muchísimo la idea de atmósfera, que quizás en la cultura portuguesa no es muy comentada. Se habla de espacio, pero como forma más que como otra cosa. Hemos ganado un poco la conciencia de que la forma es parte de algo mucho más importante que es la atmósfera. La atmósfera, que no sólo es física, es también cultural, psicológica… La atmósfera es lo que entendemos como confort real y confort cultural juntos, y en ese punto, creo que ha sido muy importante ir a Suiza y el contacto más cercano con Zumthor, aunque no fuera de una manera tan personal y directa. Lo mirábamos de lejos, escuchábamos sus clases, las cosas que hacía con los alumnos y realmente aprendimos muchísimo en ese sentido. Ha pasado lo mismo con Siza, lo conozco mucho, conozco toda su obra, cada vez que hace una cosa nueva voy a verla. Lo conozco mucho en ese sentido, un sentido más importante para mí que el de haber hablado y haberlo hecho de manera más directa y personal. Creo que es importante mantener y comprender tu origen, porque hacerlo forma parte de la comprensión de tu individualidad, pues lo que es bello en el mundo son las personas, una a una. Creo que es muy importante conservar tu personalidad, y parte de eso pasa por conservar tu origen, tu condición local. Pero también el mundo es deslumbrante, el mundo está lleno de sorpresas, de cosas increíblemente bellas que tienes que incorporar. Creo que es un juego natural, sin reglas, porque la única regla que yo tengo por segura en los proyectos es que se hacen uno a uno. De tu pregunta, hay un tema que separaría un poco, que es la enseñanza. Yo creo que se enseña para aprender, no se es tan generoso como para dedicarse a enseñar solamente para enseñar. Hemos tenido eso siempre como idea. He estado impartiendo clases desde que terminé la carrera, en muchas escuelas, en muchos lugares, sobre todo al inicio aquí en Lisboa, y siempre he aprendido enseñando. Cuando enseñas, hay un punto muy bonito, y es que estás discutiendo una arquitectura donde la decisión sobre la dirección del proyecto no es tuya. Es la mayor diferencia con el trabajo en los despachos donde la responsabilidad de la dirección del proyecto es tuya. En la escuela es del estudiante, pero se trabaja de la misma forma. Se discuten ideas, se discuten formas y posibilidades y desde ahí se hace arquitectura. Y realmente, enseñando se aprende porque trabajamos en muchos proyectos al mismo tiempo. Pavilhão de Pedra Grassi Pietre. Daniele Domenicali
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